Well, Horizon had 6 baptisms last night and probably close to 80 people come out to chill together in the process.
I had the honor to baptize Leah... She is one incredible new believer. She is brimming with excitement in her new found faith in Jesus. How cool is that?
And, from the looks of things, Tronster may get baptized (at least according to our message board). That guy astounds me... (in a good way).
Ah, well. Paul Morrell, Jr. comes in tonight from LA to help us build version 2.0 of our website. He is my best friend, next to Kimme, so I am excited about this... a whole week with Paul...
yeah!
7.19.2003
The stuff continues, but if you want it in order, you've got to read the previous journal entry.
Sadistfaction: i knew that would give me your undivided attention,
now,...no more name calling, you have my word, on the other hand no more oneliners from you, your not clever so dont pretend you are, i want answers.
i am curious to know how you ethically justify making a living off of people's faith in the unprovable?
i am wondering why you allow yourself to profit off of people fear and uncertainty of their existence?
i am wondering what result you gains from having this "faith" when it is inevitable that people die, jesus does not save... what benifits does it offer if people still die?
why didnt god publish the bible himself rather than allowing this supposed "holy book" to be haphazardly compliled over hundreds of years?
if heaven is so wonderful than wouldnt the logical thing be to just die as soon as we are born of as painlessly as possible? and how could god blame you for this after all we are only human and "nobody is perfect" certainly not a human so how could they resist having eternal bliss? oh yeah thats right ending your life full of pain, misery, heartbreak, and your inevitable death would giving up. right...nevermind this one.
have you ever noticed that things are always different from what you initially thought once you understand more about them? as in a part of growing up, can you remember some of your perception when you were a child? look how different they are now that your know more...you think i am an "atheist fundementalist" (what ever the fuck that is?) but you have no idea what i am. things are always different when you understand more about them, your human image of a "god" to be worshipped is a rather immature thing to believe in, i am not belittling you, if you want the worthless consolation many are worse off than you, though i fail to see how you can take any comfort in that, which brings me to my next point>>>
what do you hope to accomplish by worshipping? when people always refer to tragic events as "god's will" yeah as if a God who lets a baby die of s.i.d.s. is deserving of worship! if this is how god runs his show have fun in "heaven".
this is an opinion, but i think you should be made aware of it, i have found that many times, the most ethical/moral minded people are the ones who are the most fearful of trying or pursuing their dreams, they doubt their abilities and so they pursue a safe, easy route to "greatness" or elavating themselves from theaverage ape, and the choose a path of morals, ethics, religions, after all you do not necessarily have to be smart to "good" or phyisically fit to make an ethical decision, you just have keep "others" in mind, it is all a facade becuase the were too afraid to be an astronaut or a pirate, or human cannonball, or win the nobel prize, or place Gold in the 100 meter sprint in the olympics. repressing your desires makes you want to hold others back,you wish to keep them at your level. you were afraid. it makes you have strong attachment to community. like you.
so what did you really want to be DC? think back...way back, what was it? the next mozart? a rock star? the capatain of the star ship cowan? or something more fundemental, a spectar who travelled on the winds making people happy, making a cold fall day not feel so cold...something like that maybe? but instead you have found a cheap substitute, full of people blathering on about their problems, that and you have to roll over like a five dollar whore everytime someone tries to argue with you, because you cant prove anything, bummer...dude, you totally Gypped yourself! i could be wrong but there is a sketch of synapses in my brains that say this is not so far from the truth.
In reply to: "Do you suddenly care or have alturistic motives?"
i dont know. probably not in the way you would consider altruism, no, but i like to figure things out and solve complex puzzles, this is just one of them.
i think it is funny that you actually thought i was an "Atheist-fundementalist", but a "new perspective" is what happens when understanding and the fourth dimesion work in harmony.
__________
DCCowan: Wow... Some discussion, with no name calling! How refreshing... OK, let's get to work.
In reply to:
"i am curious to know how you ethically justify making a living off of people's faith in the unprovable?"
Well, according to your definition, the only people that could get paid would be scientists... philosophers would be in a bad mess, wouldn't they? I mean... you make a proposition, and the next guy says, "prove it!" You lay out an argument, but in the end someone finds where it cannot be proven. Ouch... no paycheck. Seriously, sadistfaction... according to what you have challenged me with here, no one would get paid. Not even you, unless of course, you live and die by the scientific method.
In reply to:
"i am wondering why you allow yourself to profit off of people fear and uncertainty of their existence?"
Honestly, for sake of discussion, I do not know what you are saying. I have never come across someone in fear or someone uncertain of their existence.
In reply to:
"i am wondering what result you gains from having this "faith" when it is inevitable that people die, jesus does not save... what benifits does it offer if people still die?"
Well, this answer takes us into the realm of the unprovable (like just about everything in this life) by taking us into the arena of belief. As a Christian, I believe that I have a personal relationship with God because of the life and death and resurrection of Jesus, his son, and my trust/love of/in him. This relationship is a two way street. I have given God my life and in return, he has given me his. So, in this life, though I will die, I have him now. That's a comfort to me, a strength... that I am not in this world alone, as it were, lacking purpose or meaning.
In reply to:
"why didnt god publish the bible himself rather than allowing this supposed 'holy book' to be haphazardly compliled over hundreds of years?
With all due respect, you are extremely misinformed. I have a Master's Degree in Greek and Hebrew and because of that, my major area of study was the original languages of the bible and their manuscripts. It was ANYTHING BUT half-hazardly compiled. Do you realize that Christians are attributed with the first use of a book? Christians, as early as late 1st century and early 2nd century were using books rather than scrolls for their manuscripts. Did you know that we have a papyrus fragment of the gospel of John that dates to 125 AD? Some would even say it's first generation (bringing the date to it's authorship: 95 AD), at least second (125 AD). Did you know that we have THOUSANDS of fragments and MANY complete and full manuscripts of both the old and new testaments? Ironically, these texts were written in a strategic place where if you stick something in the sand it remains preserved for thousands of years... go figure. Also, did you know we only have like a handful of manuscripts, like one or two in some cases, of great Greek philosophers like Plato or Socrates ... and these texts are hundreds of years younger than the supposed authors? But you don't hear anyone wondering if Plato actually said such and such or Socrates either for that matter. Interesting...
I have much more to say on this, but it looks like I have a LOT more to answer.
In reply to:
"if heaven is so wonderful than wouldnt the logical thing be to just die as soon as we are born of as painlessly as possible? and how could god blame you for this after all we are only human and 'nobody is perfect' certainly not a human so how could they resist having eternal bliss? oh yeah thats right ending your life full of pain, misery, heartbreak, and your inevitable death would giving up. right...nevermind this one.
Great question. I don't know why there is pain in the world. Life can suck sometimes. That's the deal. But just as there is pain, there is also joy, fun, exhilaration, triumph and victory. That's the deal. I am not ashamed to say I don't know why... that's just the way it is...
In reply to:
"you think i am an 'atheist fundamentalist' (what ever the f*** that is?) but you have no idea what i am. things are always different when you understand more about them
I called you that because you made assumptions about me because of my faith. Take a lesson from your own quote above; you did not take the time to know me. I was having a conversation with other boardies, and you broke in and crapped all over it. You can say whatever you want in your defense (and you have said a lot), but the truth is that you are no different than any fundamentalist I have ever seen, be they Christian or Muslim or whatever. Why? Because you barged in, crapped on everyone, name called, and judged people you don't know or have any relationship with other than membership with Moby.com and justified yourself in doing so while in the meantime making the others the guilty party. Sounds a lot like a fundamentalist to me.
In reply to:
"your human image of a 'god' to be worshipped is a rather immature thing to believe in, i am not belittling you, if you want the worthless consolation many are worse off than you, though i fail to see how you can take any comfort in that, which brings me to my next point>>>
How do you know or presume to know what my image of God is? And how can you say you are not belittling me but then say it's a "worthless consolation?" This is double-speak. I cannot answer questions based upon your assumptions about me... If I did, we would be talking about two different things: 1) what you think I am talking about, and 2) what I think you are wanting me to talk about.
In reply to:
"what do you hope to accomplish by worshipping?"
I hope to experience more of God, to connect with God.
In reply to:
"when people always refer to tragic events as 'god's will' yeah as if a God who lets a baby die of s.i.d.s. is deserving of worship! if this is how god runs his show have fun in 'heaven'."
Agreed, when someone says that, they are most likely NOT the one that has experienced the pain in question. That's a stupid comment to make on the part of the Christian. And, as I said, I do not know why bad things happen. I just know that they do happen, as well as the good.
In reply to:
"this is an opinion, but i think you should be made aware of it, i have found that many times, the most ethical/moral minded people are the ones who are the most fearful of trying or pursuing their dreams, they doubt their abilities and so they pursue a safe, easy route to "greatness" or elavating themselves from theaverage ape, and the choose a path of morals, ethics, religions, after all you do not necessarily have to be smart to "good" or phyisically fit to make an ethical decision, you just have keep "others" in mind, it is all a facade becuase the were too afraid to be an astronaut or a pirate, or human cannonball, or win the nobel prize, or place Gold in the 100 meter sprint in the olympics. repressing your desires makes you want to hold others back,you wish to keep them at your level. you were afraid. it makes you have strong attachment to community. like you.
so what did you really want to be DC? think back...way back, what was it? the next mozart? a rock star? the capatain of the star ship cowan? or something more fundemental, a spectar who travelled on the winds making people happy, making a cold fall day not feel so cold...something like that maybe? but instead you have found a cheap substitute, full of people blathering on about their problems, that and you have to roll over like a five dollar whore everytime someone tries to argue with you, because you cant prove anything, bummer...dude, you totally Gypped yourself! i could be wrong but there is a sketch of synapses in my brains that say this is not so far from the truth."
You're kidding, right? Would you ask the same question to Martin Luther King, Jr.? Billy Graham? Or Mother Teresa? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
IMO, to do what I do is the greatest job in the world. I am a rock-star. I am a teacher. I am a world changer. What are you?
Sadistfaction: i knew that would give me your undivided attention,
now,...no more name calling, you have my word, on the other hand no more oneliners from you, your not clever so dont pretend you are, i want answers.
i am curious to know how you ethically justify making a living off of people's faith in the unprovable?
i am wondering why you allow yourself to profit off of people fear and uncertainty of their existence?
i am wondering what result you gains from having this "faith" when it is inevitable that people die, jesus does not save... what benifits does it offer if people still die?
why didnt god publish the bible himself rather than allowing this supposed "holy book" to be haphazardly compliled over hundreds of years?
if heaven is so wonderful than wouldnt the logical thing be to just die as soon as we are born of as painlessly as possible? and how could god blame you for this after all we are only human and "nobody is perfect" certainly not a human so how could they resist having eternal bliss? oh yeah thats right ending your life full of pain, misery, heartbreak, and your inevitable death would giving up. right...nevermind this one.
have you ever noticed that things are always different from what you initially thought once you understand more about them? as in a part of growing up, can you remember some of your perception when you were a child? look how different they are now that your know more...you think i am an "atheist fundementalist" (what ever the fuck that is?) but you have no idea what i am. things are always different when you understand more about them, your human image of a "god" to be worshipped is a rather immature thing to believe in, i am not belittling you, if you want the worthless consolation many are worse off than you, though i fail to see how you can take any comfort in that, which brings me to my next point>>>
what do you hope to accomplish by worshipping? when people always refer to tragic events as "god's will" yeah as if a God who lets a baby die of s.i.d.s. is deserving of worship! if this is how god runs his show have fun in "heaven".
this is an opinion, but i think you should be made aware of it, i have found that many times, the most ethical/moral minded people are the ones who are the most fearful of trying or pursuing their dreams, they doubt their abilities and so they pursue a safe, easy route to "greatness" or elavating themselves from theaverage ape, and the choose a path of morals, ethics, religions, after all you do not necessarily have to be smart to "good" or phyisically fit to make an ethical decision, you just have keep "others" in mind, it is all a facade becuase the were too afraid to be an astronaut or a pirate, or human cannonball, or win the nobel prize, or place Gold in the 100 meter sprint in the olympics. repressing your desires makes you want to hold others back,you wish to keep them at your level. you were afraid. it makes you have strong attachment to community. like you.
so what did you really want to be DC? think back...way back, what was it? the next mozart? a rock star? the capatain of the star ship cowan? or something more fundemental, a spectar who travelled on the winds making people happy, making a cold fall day not feel so cold...something like that maybe? but instead you have found a cheap substitute, full of people blathering on about their problems, that and you have to roll over like a five dollar whore everytime someone tries to argue with you, because you cant prove anything, bummer...dude, you totally Gypped yourself! i could be wrong but there is a sketch of synapses in my brains that say this is not so far from the truth.
In reply to: "Do you suddenly care or have alturistic motives?"
i dont know. probably not in the way you would consider altruism, no, but i like to figure things out and solve complex puzzles, this is just one of them.
i think it is funny that you actually thought i was an "Atheist-fundementalist", but a "new perspective" is what happens when understanding and the fourth dimesion work in harmony.
__________
DCCowan: Wow... Some discussion, with no name calling! How refreshing... OK, let's get to work.
In reply to:
"i am curious to know how you ethically justify making a living off of people's faith in the unprovable?"
Well, according to your definition, the only people that could get paid would be scientists... philosophers would be in a bad mess, wouldn't they? I mean... you make a proposition, and the next guy says, "prove it!" You lay out an argument, but in the end someone finds where it cannot be proven. Ouch... no paycheck. Seriously, sadistfaction... according to what you have challenged me with here, no one would get paid. Not even you, unless of course, you live and die by the scientific method.
In reply to:
"i am wondering why you allow yourself to profit off of people fear and uncertainty of their existence?"
Honestly, for sake of discussion, I do not know what you are saying. I have never come across someone in fear or someone uncertain of their existence.
In reply to:
"i am wondering what result you gains from having this "faith" when it is inevitable that people die, jesus does not save... what benifits does it offer if people still die?"
Well, this answer takes us into the realm of the unprovable (like just about everything in this life) by taking us into the arena of belief. As a Christian, I believe that I have a personal relationship with God because of the life and death and resurrection of Jesus, his son, and my trust/love of/in him. This relationship is a two way street. I have given God my life and in return, he has given me his. So, in this life, though I will die, I have him now. That's a comfort to me, a strength... that I am not in this world alone, as it were, lacking purpose or meaning.
In reply to:
"why didnt god publish the bible himself rather than allowing this supposed 'holy book' to be haphazardly compliled over hundreds of years?
With all due respect, you are extremely misinformed. I have a Master's Degree in Greek and Hebrew and because of that, my major area of study was the original languages of the bible and their manuscripts. It was ANYTHING BUT half-hazardly compiled. Do you realize that Christians are attributed with the first use of a book? Christians, as early as late 1st century and early 2nd century were using books rather than scrolls for their manuscripts. Did you know that we have a papyrus fragment of the gospel of John that dates to 125 AD? Some would even say it's first generation (bringing the date to it's authorship: 95 AD), at least second (125 AD). Did you know that we have THOUSANDS of fragments and MANY complete and full manuscripts of both the old and new testaments? Ironically, these texts were written in a strategic place where if you stick something in the sand it remains preserved for thousands of years... go figure. Also, did you know we only have like a handful of manuscripts, like one or two in some cases, of great Greek philosophers like Plato or Socrates ... and these texts are hundreds of years younger than the supposed authors? But you don't hear anyone wondering if Plato actually said such and such or Socrates either for that matter. Interesting...
I have much more to say on this, but it looks like I have a LOT more to answer.
In reply to:
"if heaven is so wonderful than wouldnt the logical thing be to just die as soon as we are born of as painlessly as possible? and how could god blame you for this after all we are only human and 'nobody is perfect' certainly not a human so how could they resist having eternal bliss? oh yeah thats right ending your life full of pain, misery, heartbreak, and your inevitable death would giving up. right...nevermind this one.
Great question. I don't know why there is pain in the world. Life can suck sometimes. That's the deal. But just as there is pain, there is also joy, fun, exhilaration, triumph and victory. That's the deal. I am not ashamed to say I don't know why... that's just the way it is...
In reply to:
"you think i am an 'atheist fundamentalist' (what ever the f*** that is?) but you have no idea what i am. things are always different when you understand more about them
I called you that because you made assumptions about me because of my faith. Take a lesson from your own quote above; you did not take the time to know me. I was having a conversation with other boardies, and you broke in and crapped all over it. You can say whatever you want in your defense (and you have said a lot), but the truth is that you are no different than any fundamentalist I have ever seen, be they Christian or Muslim or whatever. Why? Because you barged in, crapped on everyone, name called, and judged people you don't know or have any relationship with other than membership with Moby.com and justified yourself in doing so while in the meantime making the others the guilty party. Sounds a lot like a fundamentalist to me.
In reply to:
"your human image of a 'god' to be worshipped is a rather immature thing to believe in, i am not belittling you, if you want the worthless consolation many are worse off than you, though i fail to see how you can take any comfort in that, which brings me to my next point>>>
How do you know or presume to know what my image of God is? And how can you say you are not belittling me but then say it's a "worthless consolation?" This is double-speak. I cannot answer questions based upon your assumptions about me... If I did, we would be talking about two different things: 1) what you think I am talking about, and 2) what I think you are wanting me to talk about.
In reply to:
"what do you hope to accomplish by worshipping?"
I hope to experience more of God, to connect with God.
In reply to:
"when people always refer to tragic events as 'god's will' yeah as if a God who lets a baby die of s.i.d.s. is deserving of worship! if this is how god runs his show have fun in 'heaven'."
Agreed, when someone says that, they are most likely NOT the one that has experienced the pain in question. That's a stupid comment to make on the part of the Christian. And, as I said, I do not know why bad things happen. I just know that they do happen, as well as the good.
In reply to:
"this is an opinion, but i think you should be made aware of it, i have found that many times, the most ethical/moral minded people are the ones who are the most fearful of trying or pursuing their dreams, they doubt their abilities and so they pursue a safe, easy route to "greatness" or elavating themselves from theaverage ape, and the choose a path of morals, ethics, religions, after all you do not necessarily have to be smart to "good" or phyisically fit to make an ethical decision, you just have keep "others" in mind, it is all a facade becuase the were too afraid to be an astronaut or a pirate, or human cannonball, or win the nobel prize, or place Gold in the 100 meter sprint in the olympics. repressing your desires makes you want to hold others back,you wish to keep them at your level. you were afraid. it makes you have strong attachment to community. like you.
so what did you really want to be DC? think back...way back, what was it? the next mozart? a rock star? the capatain of the star ship cowan? or something more fundemental, a spectar who travelled on the winds making people happy, making a cold fall day not feel so cold...something like that maybe? but instead you have found a cheap substitute, full of people blathering on about their problems, that and you have to roll over like a five dollar whore everytime someone tries to argue with you, because you cant prove anything, bummer...dude, you totally Gypped yourself! i could be wrong but there is a sketch of synapses in my brains that say this is not so far from the truth."
You're kidding, right? Would you ask the same question to Martin Luther King, Jr.? Billy Graham? Or Mother Teresa? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
IMO, to do what I do is the greatest job in the world. I am a rock-star. I am a teacher. I am a world changer. What are you?
Recent conversations with an anti-Christian on the Moby.com boards... The thread began with people of various faiths showing pictures of their places of worship. I posted Horizon's two theaters... Then, the fun began. Here is a man that does not believe in community, God, or anything...
Sadistfaction: like any of you give a s*** about each others post in this thread, this is just f***ing masterbation.
__________
DCCowan: Actually, we do... it's called community... you ought to try it sometime.
__________
Sadistfaction: o f*** your self DCCamden. dont f***ing talk to me unless you want to learn something. you wont debate me because you cant can you? i know that i get to you. so just turn the other cheek so i can smash that one too. f***ing loser.
__________
DCCowan: Well, well... are you by chance related to KillJesus or TheSpacePope? I would gladly rumble with you anytime... Maybe it's the other way around for you... I don't think you and I have ever squared off on these boards. Why is that? You are no different than any other atheism-fundamentalist here on the board. Go ahead, bash my other cheek in. I suppose that will prove your point. And so eloquently so, I might add. If you want to rumble and prove me to be a liar... I am up for the challenge.
Just remember, in this arena, you can't use fists. Public opinion and reason win battles here. If this is how you debate then you have already lost. Ah, but I'm the f***ing loser, right?
__________
Sadistfaction: In reply to: "You are no different than any other atheism-fundamentalist here on the board."
i think you will find that i am far more than just this.
In reply to: "Public opinion and reason win battles here."
you and all your xian drones couldnt shut me down if your lives depended on it. And this reference to "public opinion"?
i find it hilarious and disheartening that someone who preaches the concept of "faith" (a concern with ones personal salvation, ultimately a selfish concept) would attach value to what "other people" think as if it were relevent. hah hah.
how is that for eloquence.
that particular statement of yours makes wonder if you even have a clear idea of what faith is.
__________
DCCowan: In reply to: "you and all your xian drones couldnt shut me down if your lives depended on it."
My life does not depend on it. Why would I want to "shut you down?" Your point is???
In reply to: "And this reference to 'public opinion'?
i find it hilarious and disheartening that someone who preaches the concept of 'faith' (a concern with ones personal salvation, ultimately a selfish concept) would attach value to what 'other people' think as if it were relevent. hah hah."
I find it disheartening that you define "faith" so narrowly. Faith is not only personal, it is cooperate. That's why people of "like faith" come together for temple, mosque, or church. It's called community. Like I said, you might want to try it sometime.
And of course, I take value in what other people think. Why are you on the message board? Honestly? If you have no intention of dialogue or discussion, why come here?
In reply to: "how is that for eloquence."
It sucks.
In reply to: "that particular statement of yours makes wonder if you even have a clear idea of what faith is."
Yeah... actually, I do. Your comments make me wonder if you have a clear idea what faith is.
__________
Sadistfaction: In reply to: "My life does not depend on it. Why would I want to 'shut you down?' Your point is???
my point is that your belief must be based on something that adds up, you must be able to rationalize what you believe in if not to me than to what ever other oppposition you might come across, after all if it doesnt work for you what good is it doing? i am not like the others, just because you dont shake my foundations doesnt mean i wont try to yours...i dont play the tit-for-tat-acceptance of beliefs game, or accept another lies so long as the will mine. in reply to your staement: your spirituality depends on it, i thought you had dedicated your life to this?
i have noted a few things about you, that you make references like "none of us are perfect" and we "all make mistakes" and such, this attitude of accepting other people and your own limitations in any type of philosophical or religious scenery will lead to disaster, how can you grow? jesus was not a democrat, if you knew anything about being clever, you would realize that it is just not possible to be smart and believe in "community" and "society" and such things. the second thing is you never try to debate me, i see that you are a little smarter than everyone else in here, i have tried a few times and you have ignored me,but this is the strange part: i am certainly not scared and i am the one without "faith", or a diety to rely on, but you have these things yet still do not confront me, which makes me wonder if you are either cowaring away, or perhaps see me as not worth your time, either way you dont come off as much of a christian. or is it back to the acceptance thing? where you ignore such logic in the guise of altruistic acceptance, the mutual dishonesty? where it is okay to not be good enough??
but...what can one do when one lives in a shoe? i suppose if i believed with all my heart an soul in swisscheese, i would get a little evasive if someone was attempting to poke more holes in it.
My narrow definition of faith is short clear and basically to the point though the use of the heavily loaded word "selfish" was not optimal, i am sure you can use your brain to see what i am getting at.
i am here to find someone, and to wake you up,
hurry! hurry! that nobdy guy and other christians are looking! think of something quick! your beliefs, but more importantly your reputation is on the line!
__________
DCCowan: In reply to: "my point is that your belief must be based on something that adds up, you must be able to rationalize what you believe in if not to me than to what ever other oppposition you might come across, after all if it doesnt work for you what good is it doing?"
My faith does work for me... both my personal faith and my community of faith.
In reply to: 'i am not like the others, just because you dont shake my foundations doesnt mean i wont try to yours..."
You are trying to shake my foundations? What, by saying I am "f***ing loser?" Shiver me timbers...
In reply to: "i dont play the tit-for-tat-acceptance of beliefs game, or accept another lies so long as the will mine."
wha?
In reply to: "in reply to your staement: your spirituality depends on it, i thought you had dedicated your life to this?"
I did, have, and will. But my answer to you had to do with a quote of yours, something to the effect of: "you and all your xian drones couldnt shut me down if your lives depended on it." I guess your posts morph and change at will...
In reply to: "i have noted a few things about you, that you make references like 'none of us are perfect' and we 'all make mistakes' and such, this attitude of accepting other people and your own limitations in any type of philosophical or religious scenery will lead to disaster, how can you grow?"
That's reality, dude. Do YOU know anyone perfect? I do not. If this "disaster" is the result of reality, what does that say about your line of reasoning?
In reply to: "jesus was not a democrat, if you knew anything about being clever, you would realize that it is just not possible to be smart and believe in 'community' and 'society' and such things."
Wow. So, you don't believe countries, societies, or like-minded groups of people can exist? And that makes you smart? ???
In reply to: "the second thing is you never try to debate me"
I do not recall one time you directly challenged me until now... And here I am, debating you.
In reply to: "i have tried a few times and you have ignored me"
I genuinely do not recall a time you tried... if you did, I honestly have forgotten the instance. But, rest assured, I am here right now...
In reply to: "but this is the strange part: i am certainly not scared and i am the one without 'faith', or a diety to rely on, but you these things still do not confront me, which makes me wonderif you are either cowaring away, or perhaps see me as not worth your time, either way you dont come off as much of a christian."
As I said, I am here now. I am curious as to what you would consider "Christian-like." I have always stood by my faith, even with the likes of your predecesors. I have not compromised them to "fit in." I express my faith at all times.
In reply to: "or is it back to the acceptance thing? where you ignore such logic in the guise of altruistic acceptance, the mutual dishonesty? where it is okay to not be good enough??"
Obviously I am not accepted by you, and I am not "good enough" for you... and I can live with that.
In reply to: "but...what can one do when one lives in a shoe? i suppose if i believed with all my heart an soul in swisscheese, i would get a little evasive if someone was attempting to poke more holes in it."
Once again... no evasiveness here. Bring it on...
In reply to: "My narrow definition of faith is short clear and basically to the point though the use of the heavily loaded word 'selfish' was not optimal, i am sure you can use your brain to see what i am getting at.
yep... got it.
In reply to: "i am here to find someone, and to wake you up"
Wake me up? Wake me up to what? That I am a "f***ing loser?" Do you suddenly care or have alturistic motives?
In reply to: "hurry! hurry! that nobdy guy and other christians are looking! think of something quick! your beliefs, but more importantly your reputation is on the line!"
*yawn* hum... getting sleepy.
Sadistfaction: like any of you give a s*** about each others post in this thread, this is just f***ing masterbation.
__________
DCCowan: Actually, we do... it's called community... you ought to try it sometime.
__________
Sadistfaction: o f*** your self DCCamden. dont f***ing talk to me unless you want to learn something. you wont debate me because you cant can you? i know that i get to you. so just turn the other cheek so i can smash that one too. f***ing loser.
__________
DCCowan: Well, well... are you by chance related to KillJesus or TheSpacePope? I would gladly rumble with you anytime... Maybe it's the other way around for you... I don't think you and I have ever squared off on these boards. Why is that? You are no different than any other atheism-fundamentalist here on the board. Go ahead, bash my other cheek in. I suppose that will prove your point. And so eloquently so, I might add. If you want to rumble and prove me to be a liar... I am up for the challenge.
Just remember, in this arena, you can't use fists. Public opinion and reason win battles here. If this is how you debate then you have already lost. Ah, but I'm the f***ing loser, right?
__________
Sadistfaction: In reply to: "You are no different than any other atheism-fundamentalist here on the board."
i think you will find that i am far more than just this.
In reply to: "Public opinion and reason win battles here."
you and all your xian drones couldnt shut me down if your lives depended on it. And this reference to "public opinion"?
i find it hilarious and disheartening that someone who preaches the concept of "faith" (a concern with ones personal salvation, ultimately a selfish concept) would attach value to what "other people" think as if it were relevent. hah hah.
how is that for eloquence.
that particular statement of yours makes wonder if you even have a clear idea of what faith is.
__________
DCCowan: In reply to: "you and all your xian drones couldnt shut me down if your lives depended on it."
My life does not depend on it. Why would I want to "shut you down?" Your point is???
In reply to: "And this reference to 'public opinion'?
i find it hilarious and disheartening that someone who preaches the concept of 'faith' (a concern with ones personal salvation, ultimately a selfish concept) would attach value to what 'other people' think as if it were relevent. hah hah."
I find it disheartening that you define "faith" so narrowly. Faith is not only personal, it is cooperate. That's why people of "like faith" come together for temple, mosque, or church. It's called community. Like I said, you might want to try it sometime.
And of course, I take value in what other people think. Why are you on the message board? Honestly? If you have no intention of dialogue or discussion, why come here?
In reply to: "how is that for eloquence."
It sucks.
In reply to: "that particular statement of yours makes wonder if you even have a clear idea of what faith is."
Yeah... actually, I do. Your comments make me wonder if you have a clear idea what faith is.
__________
Sadistfaction: In reply to: "My life does not depend on it. Why would I want to 'shut you down?' Your point is???
my point is that your belief must be based on something that adds up, you must be able to rationalize what you believe in if not to me than to what ever other oppposition you might come across, after all if it doesnt work for you what good is it doing? i am not like the others, just because you dont shake my foundations doesnt mean i wont try to yours...i dont play the tit-for-tat-acceptance of beliefs game, or accept another lies so long as the will mine. in reply to your staement: your spirituality depends on it, i thought you had dedicated your life to this?
i have noted a few things about you, that you make references like "none of us are perfect" and we "all make mistakes" and such, this attitude of accepting other people and your own limitations in any type of philosophical or religious scenery will lead to disaster, how can you grow? jesus was not a democrat, if you knew anything about being clever, you would realize that it is just not possible to be smart and believe in "community" and "society" and such things. the second thing is you never try to debate me, i see that you are a little smarter than everyone else in here, i have tried a few times and you have ignored me,but this is the strange part: i am certainly not scared and i am the one without "faith", or a diety to rely on, but you have these things yet still do not confront me, which makes me wonder if you are either cowaring away, or perhaps see me as not worth your time, either way you dont come off as much of a christian. or is it back to the acceptance thing? where you ignore such logic in the guise of altruistic acceptance, the mutual dishonesty? where it is okay to not be good enough??
but...what can one do when one lives in a shoe? i suppose if i believed with all my heart an soul in swisscheese, i would get a little evasive if someone was attempting to poke more holes in it.
My narrow definition of faith is short clear and basically to the point though the use of the heavily loaded word "selfish" was not optimal, i am sure you can use your brain to see what i am getting at.
i am here to find someone, and to wake you up,
hurry! hurry! that nobdy guy and other christians are looking! think of something quick! your beliefs, but more importantly your reputation is on the line!
__________
DCCowan: In reply to: "my point is that your belief must be based on something that adds up, you must be able to rationalize what you believe in if not to me than to what ever other oppposition you might come across, after all if it doesnt work for you what good is it doing?"
My faith does work for me... both my personal faith and my community of faith.
In reply to: 'i am not like the others, just because you dont shake my foundations doesnt mean i wont try to yours..."
You are trying to shake my foundations? What, by saying I am "f***ing loser?" Shiver me timbers...
In reply to: "i dont play the tit-for-tat-acceptance of beliefs game, or accept another lies so long as the will mine."
wha?
In reply to: "in reply to your staement: your spirituality depends on it, i thought you had dedicated your life to this?"
I did, have, and will. But my answer to you had to do with a quote of yours, something to the effect of: "you and all your xian drones couldnt shut me down if your lives depended on it." I guess your posts morph and change at will...
In reply to: "i have noted a few things about you, that you make references like 'none of us are perfect' and we 'all make mistakes' and such, this attitude of accepting other people and your own limitations in any type of philosophical or religious scenery will lead to disaster, how can you grow?"
That's reality, dude. Do YOU know anyone perfect? I do not. If this "disaster" is the result of reality, what does that say about your line of reasoning?
In reply to: "jesus was not a democrat, if you knew anything about being clever, you would realize that it is just not possible to be smart and believe in 'community' and 'society' and such things."
Wow. So, you don't believe countries, societies, or like-minded groups of people can exist? And that makes you smart? ???
In reply to: "the second thing is you never try to debate me"
I do not recall one time you directly challenged me until now... And here I am, debating you.
In reply to: "i have tried a few times and you have ignored me"
I genuinely do not recall a time you tried... if you did, I honestly have forgotten the instance. But, rest assured, I am here right now...
In reply to: "but this is the strange part: i am certainly not scared and i am the one without 'faith', or a diety to rely on, but you these things still do not confront me, which makes me wonderif you are either cowaring away, or perhaps see me as not worth your time, either way you dont come off as much of a christian."
As I said, I am here now. I am curious as to what you would consider "Christian-like." I have always stood by my faith, even with the likes of your predecesors. I have not compromised them to "fit in." I express my faith at all times.
In reply to: "or is it back to the acceptance thing? where you ignore such logic in the guise of altruistic acceptance, the mutual dishonesty? where it is okay to not be good enough??"
Obviously I am not accepted by you, and I am not "good enough" for you... and I can live with that.
In reply to: "but...what can one do when one lives in a shoe? i suppose if i believed with all my heart an soul in swisscheese, i would get a little evasive if someone was attempting to poke more holes in it."
Once again... no evasiveness here. Bring it on...
In reply to: "My narrow definition of faith is short clear and basically to the point though the use of the heavily loaded word 'selfish' was not optimal, i am sure you can use your brain to see what i am getting at.
yep... got it.
In reply to: "i am here to find someone, and to wake you up"
Wake me up? Wake me up to what? That I am a "f***ing loser?" Do you suddenly care or have alturistic motives?
In reply to: "hurry! hurry! that nobdy guy and other christians are looking! think of something quick! your beliefs, but more importantly your reputation is on the line!"
*yawn* hum... getting sleepy.
7.15.2003
Paul wrote:
Rom. 15.20 It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else's foundation.
Rom. 15.21 Rather, as it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."
Rom. 15.22 This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you.
Rom. 15.23 But now that there is no more place for me to work in these regions, and since I have been longing for many years to see you,
Rom. 15.24 I plan to do so when I go to Spain. I hope to visit you while passing through and to have you assist me on my journey there, after I have enjoyed your company for a while.
Rom. 15.25 Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the saints there.
I share his thoughts. I learned early in ministry that I have a desire to start new works. It's in me deep; it's in my blood. The thought thrills me to no end. I remember with my first start (more like a para-church deal than a church itself) -- the MIX, in New Orleans -- how addictive it was. Man... to see people schedule their time during the week to come and worship God when before they had no interest was a complete thrill for me.
Now @ Horizon, it's not different. First Owings Mills -- a place with 30,000 people in a one mile radius -- and one struggling church of like 30 in our area when we started. Towson... the numbers are even greater in density, being more urban and with a college campus right next door. Well... there are churches around, but most of them are rather old school... nothing wrong with that, but in the scheme of things -- they are probably finding it harder and harder to reach the college students around them. In comes Horizon...
Yet, the last part of Paul's words are sobering. He desired to get to Spain someday. The passion that drove him in Christ to start new works was the passion that set his sights on Spain. But... most likely, he never made it. Spain was reached, in time... but not by Paul.
Someday, my passion and zeal will drive me elsewhere... and hopefully when I am 60+ years old, I too will set my sights on a new frontier. But, even in that moment -- what matters most is that my zeal and passion infects others so that when I am gone... the dream continues.
Paul's dream continues in me.
DCC
Rom. 15.20 It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else's foundation.
Rom. 15.21 Rather, as it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."
Rom. 15.22 This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you.
Rom. 15.23 But now that there is no more place for me to work in these regions, and since I have been longing for many years to see you,
Rom. 15.24 I plan to do so when I go to Spain. I hope to visit you while passing through and to have you assist me on my journey there, after I have enjoyed your company for a while.
Rom. 15.25 Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the saints there.
I share his thoughts. I learned early in ministry that I have a desire to start new works. It's in me deep; it's in my blood. The thought thrills me to no end. I remember with my first start (more like a para-church deal than a church itself) -- the MIX, in New Orleans -- how addictive it was. Man... to see people schedule their time during the week to come and worship God when before they had no interest was a complete thrill for me.
Now @ Horizon, it's not different. First Owings Mills -- a place with 30,000 people in a one mile radius -- and one struggling church of like 30 in our area when we started. Towson... the numbers are even greater in density, being more urban and with a college campus right next door. Well... there are churches around, but most of them are rather old school... nothing wrong with that, but in the scheme of things -- they are probably finding it harder and harder to reach the college students around them. In comes Horizon...
Yet, the last part of Paul's words are sobering. He desired to get to Spain someday. The passion that drove him in Christ to start new works was the passion that set his sights on Spain. But... most likely, he never made it. Spain was reached, in time... but not by Paul.
Someday, my passion and zeal will drive me elsewhere... and hopefully when I am 60+ years old, I too will set my sights on a new frontier. But, even in that moment -- what matters most is that my zeal and passion infects others so that when I am gone... the dream continues.
Paul's dream continues in me.
DCC
7.10.2003
Saw a short clip from the Actor's Studio tonight with Will Smith. One of the student actors mentioned a professor there at their school said that people become actors because they have something to say. For Will Smith, he said it was the drive to be the best he could be -- to do what others said could not be done. That's what he had to say.
I was kind of disappointed with Will's response, hoping for more. I think on the spur of the moment that was simply what came to him.
What struck me most was the statement from the professor... We act because we have something to say.
What about Christians? Or, more specifically, what about me? What do I have to say?
Part of this journey with Christ is learning the story of what God wants to say through our lives. This is a truth that has been growing in me for some time now. When I look back @ my life, I see a lot of turmoil. As one friend said, "I get tired just hearing your story." Gee... I guess I should write a book! :) Yet God has pulled off what he does best in my life: miracles and new birth. My story is one of reconciliation and redemption, the same story of every seeker of Christ. The plot is the same; I'm just a different face.
I was kind of disappointed with Will's response, hoping for more. I think on the spur of the moment that was simply what came to him.
What struck me most was the statement from the professor... We act because we have something to say.
What about Christians? Or, more specifically, what about me? What do I have to say?
Part of this journey with Christ is learning the story of what God wants to say through our lives. This is a truth that has been growing in me for some time now. When I look back @ my life, I see a lot of turmoil. As one friend said, "I get tired just hearing your story." Gee... I guess I should write a book! :) Yet God has pulled off what he does best in my life: miracles and new birth. My story is one of reconciliation and redemption, the same story of every seeker of Christ. The plot is the same; I'm just a different face.
7.09.2003
This morning was spent with some dear friends of mine in ministry: Ron Larson, Bruce Hopler, Clay Carver, Ron Willaby, and Jonathan Lee. We shared breakfast together and got each other caught up with each other on the current issues facing Southern Baptists these days, especially in our area. Perhaps I will post more about that later... I feel compelled to write about something else...
Later in the day when we all got together for lunch @ Friday's @ Arundel Mills, we eventually got to the discussion of porn. Basically, it comes down to this... It would seem that this is an issue that every minister deals with. Ron Larson mentioned a stat that basically 58% of pastors will admit to having some form of sexual addiction in their life (from major issues to minor ones)... and that's from the one's that ADMIT they have a problem... That's 6 out of 10.
Also, it was mentioned that a recent "Youth Specialties" conference in Colorado left a hotel with a record number of porn/adult movie PPVs! Apparently, all of the youth leaders had a "thing" for porn, enough so as to break records...
I will not share one thing that was mentioned, but one of us at the table knew of someone that had even gone to a prostitute (wasn't anyone @ the table, but someone knew of one). How funny is it that my time with God tonight landed me on Proverbs 7:
Prov. 7.6 At the window of my house I looked out through the lattice.
Prov. 7.7 I saw among the simple, I noticed among the young men, a youth who lacked judgment.
Prov. 7.8 He was going down the street near her corner, walking along in the direction of her house
Prov. 7.9 at twilight, as the day was fading, as the dark of night set in.
Prov. 7.10 Then out came a woman to meet him, dressed like a prostitute and with crafty intent.
Prov. 7.11 (She is loud and defiant, her feet never stay at home;
Prov. 7.12 now in the street, now in the squares, at every corner she lurks.)
Prov. 7.13 She took hold of him and kissed him and with a brazen face she said:
Prov. 7.14 “I have fellowship offerings at home; today I fulfilled my vows.
Prov. 7.15 So I came out to meet you; I looked for you and have found you!
Prov. 7.16 I have covered my bed with colored linens from Egypt.
Prov. 7.17 I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes and cinnamon.
Prov. 7.18 Come, let’s drink deep of love till morning; let’s enjoy ourselves with love!
Prov. 7.19 My husband is not at home; he has gone on a long journey.
Prov. 7.20 He took his purse filled with money and will not be home till full moon.”
Prov. 7.21 With persuasive words she led him astray; she seduced him with her smooth talk.
Prov. 7.22 All at once he followed her like an ox going to the slaughter, like a deer stepping into a noose
Prov. 7.23 till an arrow pierces his liver, like a bird darting into a snare, little knowing it will cost him his life.
Prov. 7.24 Now then, my sons, listen to me; pay attention to what I say.
Prov. 7.25 Do not let your heart turn to her ways or stray into her paths.
Prov. 7.26 Many are the victims she has brought down; her slain are a mighty throng.
Prov. 7.27 Her house is a highway to the grave, leading down to the chambers of death.
As a side note... before lunch, I was @ Borders in Columbia with Bruce Hopler. On the way back to the coffee shop from a search for a book, a man stood out to me as being very odd. He was rather old, frail. And he was noticeably embarrassed at what he was reading, but he was apparently desperate to read it. It was the section of books on sexuality (why is this section ALWAYS by the religion/Christian section?). I dunno. It was like I was seeing the chains on him, the shackles. And also... I saw myself -- had I not repented and relinquished myself from the hold of porn while I was a teenager.
I have been somewhat open about this subject for some time now. Yep. I was once addicted to porn when I was a teen. I had ready access to stuff certain summers staying with a relative... But, I learned the art of self-discipline. Plus, thanks be to God, I have the best wife in the world. She is my #1 accountability partner. She helps me keep my head about things (wow. where would I be without her help @ times?).
I just think it's time for us as the church to no longer run from this issue. It MUST be addressed with love, firmness, compassion, and fortitude.
DCC
archived old post from yesterday:
Tue Jul 08, 05:41:13 PM . David Cowan
Twas a good day spent with Clay and Jeff Mount. Jeff is taking a class on early Christianity and was discussing with us the content of the class. It would seem that his prof. has a love for history, but most likely not a formal education in Koine Greek. Anyway, there was also good discussion about Christianity in general... namely: is it possible to prove one's faith? I say no... we relate to God, as we relate to others... through faith. Faith is the leap between what we think to be true and what we hope will occur. We can present evidence for our beliefs; all of us have that. Indeed, we need evidence to build our beliefs upon; usually these are based somewhere in exprience.
Anyway... that was some cool discussion.
Later in the day when we all got together for lunch @ Friday's @ Arundel Mills, we eventually got to the discussion of porn. Basically, it comes down to this... It would seem that this is an issue that every minister deals with. Ron Larson mentioned a stat that basically 58% of pastors will admit to having some form of sexual addiction in their life (from major issues to minor ones)... and that's from the one's that ADMIT they have a problem... That's 6 out of 10.
Also, it was mentioned that a recent "Youth Specialties" conference in Colorado left a hotel with a record number of porn/adult movie PPVs! Apparently, all of the youth leaders had a "thing" for porn, enough so as to break records...
I will not share one thing that was mentioned, but one of us at the table knew of someone that had even gone to a prostitute (wasn't anyone @ the table, but someone knew of one). How funny is it that my time with God tonight landed me on Proverbs 7:
Prov. 7.6 At the window of my house I looked out through the lattice.
Prov. 7.7 I saw among the simple, I noticed among the young men, a youth who lacked judgment.
Prov. 7.8 He was going down the street near her corner, walking along in the direction of her house
Prov. 7.9 at twilight, as the day was fading, as the dark of night set in.
Prov. 7.10 Then out came a woman to meet him, dressed like a prostitute and with crafty intent.
Prov. 7.11 (She is loud and defiant, her feet never stay at home;
Prov. 7.12 now in the street, now in the squares, at every corner she lurks.)
Prov. 7.13 She took hold of him and kissed him and with a brazen face she said:
Prov. 7.14 “I have fellowship offerings at home; today I fulfilled my vows.
Prov. 7.15 So I came out to meet you; I looked for you and have found you!
Prov. 7.16 I have covered my bed with colored linens from Egypt.
Prov. 7.17 I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes and cinnamon.
Prov. 7.18 Come, let’s drink deep of love till morning; let’s enjoy ourselves with love!
Prov. 7.19 My husband is not at home; he has gone on a long journey.
Prov. 7.20 He took his purse filled with money and will not be home till full moon.”
Prov. 7.21 With persuasive words she led him astray; she seduced him with her smooth talk.
Prov. 7.22 All at once he followed her like an ox going to the slaughter, like a deer stepping into a noose
Prov. 7.23 till an arrow pierces his liver, like a bird darting into a snare, little knowing it will cost him his life.
Prov. 7.24 Now then, my sons, listen to me; pay attention to what I say.
Prov. 7.25 Do not let your heart turn to her ways or stray into her paths.
Prov. 7.26 Many are the victims she has brought down; her slain are a mighty throng.
Prov. 7.27 Her house is a highway to the grave, leading down to the chambers of death.
As a side note... before lunch, I was @ Borders in Columbia with Bruce Hopler. On the way back to the coffee shop from a search for a book, a man stood out to me as being very odd. He was rather old, frail. And he was noticeably embarrassed at what he was reading, but he was apparently desperate to read it. It was the section of books on sexuality (why is this section ALWAYS by the religion/Christian section?). I dunno. It was like I was seeing the chains on him, the shackles. And also... I saw myself -- had I not repented and relinquished myself from the hold of porn while I was a teenager.
I have been somewhat open about this subject for some time now. Yep. I was once addicted to porn when I was a teen. I had ready access to stuff certain summers staying with a relative... But, I learned the art of self-discipline. Plus, thanks be to God, I have the best wife in the world. She is my #1 accountability partner. She helps me keep my head about things (wow. where would I be without her help @ times?).
I just think it's time for us as the church to no longer run from this issue. It MUST be addressed with love, firmness, compassion, and fortitude.
DCC
archived old post from yesterday:
Tue Jul 08, 05:41:13 PM . David Cowan
Twas a good day spent with Clay and Jeff Mount. Jeff is taking a class on early Christianity and was discussing with us the content of the class. It would seem that his prof. has a love for history, but most likely not a formal education in Koine Greek. Anyway, there was also good discussion about Christianity in general... namely: is it possible to prove one's faith? I say no... we relate to God, as we relate to others... through faith. Faith is the leap between what we think to be true and what we hope will occur. We can present evidence for our beliefs; all of us have that. Indeed, we need evidence to build our beliefs upon; usually these are based somewhere in exprience.
Anyway... that was some cool discussion.
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